Sad sad sad. And we wonder why women have an issue with body and self-image.

I agree that jail time won't help. But I do agree that an industry-wide mandate about the minimum weight standard would help, like a 5'8" woman needs to weigh at least 135-140 lbs to get print and runway work.

In fact, wasn't this tried already during the Spring 2008 shows in Italy and Spain?

http://www.iht.com/articles/20...../milan.php

But others employed in the fashion industry wrung hands ("How are we going to enforced it?") and passed blame ("It's not *my* fault! It's the designers/photographers/modeling agencies/sytlists/consumers!"). Kinda like how reasonable critiques like Bethann Hardison calling for more models of color met with the same reaction…

Why do people pay so much to an eating disorder that sufferers, 1% of the female population, turn into a "lifestyle choice" while the pro-fat/fat-acceptance movement glorifies yet another eating disorder that impacts, oh, at least 10% of the general population? Yes, anorexia and bulimia are more likely to kill sufferers in a more timely fashion but American society specifically has come to celebrate another form of disorderly eating.

These sick girls and women who are part of the "pro-ana" movement are not increasing body image issues in other women. They want to look like Nicole Richie in that infamous bikini picture with bones jutting everywhere. I think if we took a poll of all the little girls and women out there, 99% of them would say that this goal is disgusting and nothing to aspire to. If you want to talk about body image issues in the general population, look at the messages girls get from their mothers about their bodies and eating, the messages they get from parents and adult role models about what is attractive and desirable, then look at the size 2/4/6 celebrities (Paris Hilton, Jessica Alba, Jessica Simpson). People are so quick to point the finger at someone else. It's amazing to me that the women that have probably been popping diet pills, criticizing their bodies and living on lettuce for years are the ones attacking The Media for "giving" their children eating disorders. Blame Vogue all you want, but who's bringing it into the house almost every time?

Perhaps French girls are different but in terms of combating a disease, jailing its sufferers probably isn't the way to go. Anorexia is not a diet. It's not even about eating most of the time nor are most cases of bulimia and binge eating. In addition to genetic predispositions and environmental factors, girls who are abused develop these issues. Look at some of our more famous sufferers:
Oprah - disorderly eating - array of physical and sexual abuse
Fiona Apple - anorexia - raped at age 12
Kate Beckinsale - anorexia - family history of anorexia
Ricki Lake - binge eating - sexually abused as a child
Wynona Judd - binge eating - sexually abused as a child

There are those who use it as a means to career success: ballerinas, gymnasts, the cast of Ally McBeal

and the ones for whom it's a control issue: Princess Di, Brandy, Audrey Hepburn

Healthy girls don't go looking for this information. Sick girls may learn some new things but it certainly doesn't activate some dormant problem. If you, a happy person, come across one of those suicide advice websites, do you suddenly feel the urge to kill yourself, as glamorous as they may make death seem? Girls with eating disorders and "disorderly eating" are the ones looking for this. The online thing creates a secret society that has been prevalent in the real world. It's unfortunate but criminalizing the proselytizers isn't going to solve anything.

Anorexia is a disease. How can you jail a person for an illness? You can't jail people for cancer. I totally agree with you, Daria. Can you imagine the outrage if this ruling were for morbidly obese women? I really hate that I am constantly apologizing for being a size 2 when obese women whine "but I'm a real woman"…yeah, you're a real woman with real health problems. I'm not skinny, I'm just short and small-boned- 5'0 to be precise. No 5'8 or 5'10 woman should wear the same size as me.

@daria–I was wondering when you were going to arrive with a comment.:-D Let me ask you this (and I ask this seriously and sincerely): who sets the standards for beauty in a society at a given time? (I know, taking a stroll through a museum that artists–Rueben, Botticelli, Raphael, Titian, for whom we name certain "looks"–left pieces that show what the standard of beauty was for their respective eras. But were they beauty-standard bearers or arbitors?) Or am I asking a chicken-or-egg question?

@cunnilingusface–the sad reality is, thanks to this society's obsession with skinny-ness and its constant reinforcement (i.e. constantly featuring the size 2/4 models and celebrities, dogging Beyonce for being "one KFC bucket" from being "fat," dogging Britney for being "fat," moms bringing home Vogue, etc.), 5'8" and 5'10 women do want to be your size and feel inadequate for not being your size. Friend, that's not your fault in the least; that's the distortion that keeps people, esp. women, buying the the magazines and the diet pills. What did someone once say? "Inadequency fuels the capitalist economy."

PROANA FOREVER'life style not disorder.

For the most part, what's rare or exotic is considered beautiful in many societies which makes achieving that standard and uphill battle for the mere mortals. It's always slightly out of reach.

Examples:
*Fashion models today - genetic freaks height wise, very thin; American women on average are 5'4" and 145 at the very least while models are at least 5'8" and 110-130 lbs
*Big butt, big lips, tan skin worship today - while all common in black women and Latinas, they are rare in most people of European (esp. Western European descent). Suddenly, women are stuffing their butts and lips, buying plumping lip gloss and jeans with padded booties. Angelina Jolie is adored for essentially being a genetic freak, much like fashion models.
*I remember when I was younger that the girls in the rural areas who were about to get married were fattened up. Many 12, 13 and 14 year old village girls don't have a lifestyle that's conducive to being average weight, thick and let alone fat. That's what the men in the area liked so these girls got locked up to avoid weight loss and STUFFED.
*Chinese foot wrapping. Need I say more?

Went to askmen to drive home the point. Their top 10:
10 - Adriana Lima is 5'10", 34-23-33, dark hair-light eyes combo, tan skin, hourglass shape (rarest of all body types)
9 - Marisa Miller is 5'8", 34D-23-35, blond hair, hazel eyes, disproportionately busty, disproportionately long legs
8 - Rihanna - 5'8", size 4, long legs exaggerated by very high heels
7 - Jessica Biel - 5'8", pouty lips, round butt, impossibly toned
6 - Scarlett - blond, green eyes, pouty lips, big chest, hourglass shaped
5 - Jessica Alba - ethnically ambiguous, tan, thin
4 - Eva Mendes - beauty queen face, pouty lips, round butt, hair and skin always look sun-kissed,
3 - Kate Beckinsale - tall, thin, delicate features, small frame
2 - Ale Ambrosio - strong jaw, disproportionately long legs, 5'10", 112 lbs
1 - Katherine Heigl - see Scarlett

Average American woman of the age group - 5'4", ~145 (not nearly as thin), over 90% are not hourglass shaped, dark brown/black hair, dark brown eyes, not ethnically ambiguous, generally have shorter hair than the above

I'm going to guess that the majority of women in 14th, 15th and 16th century Europe did not have the luxury of being thicker. The soft bodies signal a lack of labor, the kind of woman who lays naked in a chaise being fed grapes by the maids. I'm quite sure that the vast majority of the women were cooking, cleaning, fetching water, doing laundry, etc. to have soft bodies. Labor results in muscle tone and in that age, all that strength signaled poverty. Venus surely wasn't doing all that mess.

I also think today's society overstates the newness of this. Hmmm. Corsets anyone? Entire generations went, artificially slimming their waists at the expense of organ functioning. Let's see.
Pre 1950s, it was Jean Harlow, Joan Crawford
Jean Harlow's platinum blond do probably caused a lot of toxic exposure. Joan Crawford exercised obsessively. Both not shaped like other women of the time, thinner, much imitated.
50s and 60s - Elizabeth Taylor, Mamie Van Doren, Marilyn Monroe, Jayne Mansfield, Audrey Hepburn.
Hourglass figures all around. Marilyn Monroe and Audrey Hepburn had eating disorder. Though bustier, all were thinner than the women of their time.
60s and 70s - Twiggy, Jane Fonda, Pam Grier, Ali MacGraw, Jacqueline Bissett, Catherine Deneuve.
Jane Fonda had a 30-year eating disorder. All trim, most are busty
80s and 90s - Pamela Anderson, Halle, Kylie Minogue, Janet Jackson, Cindy-Naomi-Claudia-Christy-Elle-Linda, Julia Roberts, Kate Moss
2000 to now - Gisele, Scarlett Johanson, Beyonce, Shakira, Paris Hilton, Britney Spears

That there are blogs to chronicle the daily goings on doesn't mean this is at all new. People talk about them because finally, they see that these seemingly perfect people have flaws.

There is this wonderful land of normality between having a cigarette for dinner and binging. Just like starving, binging is a group activity and a harmful, acceptable hobby at that; people of all sizes take part in this. Selling the idea that the Standard American Diet with its many indulgences makes for good health.

Being 5'4" 145lbs is fat the ave. person is fat

Off topic but

What a name!

cunnilingusface

Some women are 5'8 -5'11 and wear a size 2 - 4 naturally. We need to be careful in that we do not swing to the other side of the spectrum, which is hating thin people. I am all for BSL look if it’s natural or done through a healthy diet.

Daria Audrey Hepburn was a waif. There are parts of the world and tribes/ethnic groups where a 5'8 inch woman is normal. I can think of the Netherlands/ some tribes in Sudan, Sengal and I think I read Somailia where there are a large number of women who are 5'8+.

Chic Noir, absolutely. I don't think all models have eating disorders. If you look at many, it's obvious that they've been the Olive Oyl's all their lives. Still, fashion models for the most part are not sex symbols and I don't think

I don't want to list any sort of dress size on the other end. If you're 5'8" with a medium frame (most models have small frames), being healthy and are a size 0 or 2, it's a good idea to get checked out because it could be hyperthroidism. Much the same, if you're being healthy and are still bigger, it's good to get checked out. Being a certain size naturally with good habits doesn't mean there's nothing else going on.

Chic Noir, actually, she suffered from anorexia and depression throughout her Hollywood years. Those close to her including her son have confirmed this and it was quite surprising when I found out. I'm an Audrey aficionado. I own three movies and she's in all of them. I also have her bio and the book "Audrey Style." She didn't look unhealthy or sickly but she was barely over 100 lbs at 5'7". That is certainly underweight. A healthy adult woman with that weight likely has an underlying health problem.

Twiggy seemed to have been a healthy waif though.

You are right about Twiggy, Daria. Sadly she was been blamed for the rise of anorexia in the 60's. She seemed like such a sweet warm woman while on Top model.

I think we need to question why so many people are so easily influenced by what they see in the media to the point of wanting to change their looks every time a new ideal comes into vogue.

I have read to posts on various message boards from blk women who are doing extreme things to gain weight. I’ve read about blk women using gasoline, hydrogel shots,various pills etc… To many ybfs want to look like Ti-koy and Buffy and that is so not how most blk women are built…

Hey Chelsea…I'll take your bait, so you can shut up and go away, alright? Ooh, you're so edgy and pro-Ana….you crazy rebel…I'm not even going to argue with your stupid quotes.
Now, away you go!

there are lots of black women doing the exact opposite.

Twiggy to me is impossibly thin so it's amazing to me that people would even try. The only thing I wanted to imitate is her eye make up. Reality check: most women's bones are probably bigger than she is. I think she's lovely and pretty but that is not achievable. That would be like me trying to be 5'2". I can't shrink my bones. People need to be real. I can look at a picture of Stacy Dash (came to mind because she's on the cover of King) and think "let me do go for that run now." I don't perceive that to be negative at all. I don't want to look like Stacy necessarily. I want to look like me minus 2 or 3 dress sizes.

The media impacts the standard of beauty. With or without it, there would be high standards that few could reach but everyone would still aspire to.

You are right daria but I think the majority of blk women who grow up in all blk(AA) enviroments desire to look like video girls. Blk women who grow up in mixed or all yt enviroments, may want to have a look that is celebrated by mainstream America.

@daria–thanks so much for giving a thoughtful response to my question. It gives me a bit to think about…

@Chic Noir–you're right. There are 5'8" or 5'10" women who do wear sizes 2-4 naturally. But when wearing that size is seen as the standard to achieve at the expense of seeing other sizes as healthy/normal, say, being the same height and wearing 8-14, then that's where the distortion–including folks hatin' on anyone who is fits that standard–comes into play.

Here's my own minimum fat standard for my 5'7.5" frame: 1) I want my minimum dress size to be in the double digits. So nothing below a size 10, 2) I want enough fat on my body to get through a medically necessary invasive surgery (i.e. heart surgery) and still come out looking pretty babe (to me, ideal babe is Nigella Lawson. Also, my mom, a nurse, observed that, people with "some fat" tend to come out of such surgeries better than those with little body fat), and 3) I want enough weight where my knees don't hurt. (I'm small-boned.) So, my ideal dress sizes are 10-16, tops. (Right now, I'm a 12.) Right now, I walk to and from work on the weekdays and take salsa lessons on the weekend. Still working on watching what and when I eat but, for my own standard, I'm doing OK so far.

I would just like to represent for the naturally small BLACK woman. I am well into my 30's with 2 children - about 5'4 and never weighed over 130 (pregnant!). There have been times when white people on my job told me they HATED me when they first met me b/c they thought I starved myself to be skinny. Well, I think If that were the case which it is NOT, they should pray for me not hate me! This particular co-worker later divulged that she stopped hating me when she saw that I had long healthy hair and nails (fat fingers) so it didn't appear that I starved myself. So whoever indicated earlier that only sick people research this information might be right b/c I had never thought of that until it was told to me.

I do want to say that heavier women should stop trying to make small women feel uncofortable. We have feelings too!!! When I was younger I can't tell you how many times I went to the doctor thinking that something was wrong with me b/c Black people in particular can't seem to accept a small Black person as being healthy. It's not the same reaction, however I get from Whites, who wished they were small like me. I have never known a Black women to wish to be extremely thin b/c I don't think being thin is as celebrated in the Black culture. Again, there were times that I was made to feel as if I was some sort of freak. I look back and wonder if there was "secret" jealousy of my size. I still don't understand it. All I can positively say is that I never strived to be thin - not as a Black woman! It was frowned upon. In fact, there were times I made myself sick trying to gain weight! Now that I am older I am comfortable with my size and don't really care what others have to say. I wear somewhere b/t a 1-4 depending on..well let's just say my weight fluctuates like the average woman!

"I look back and wonder if there was “secret” jealousy of my size."

Anon, some where.

Well I am still very confused by it b/c with Blacks, I got things like, "you look sick", "you don't look well", "I hope you don't think that's cute". With Whites, I understood that they wanted to be small but with Blacks ???? I mean, how rude would it be for me to say to a larger person, "You look sick, I hope you don't think your are cute". Like I said, after I made sure I wasn't "sick" (due to people trying to convince me) I became content with my God given size. I'm just wondering why people HAD to convince me that something was wrong with me.

I don't get that anymore b/c I fluctuate b/t maybe 118 - 125, maybe 130 if I am having a "thick" week. FOR ME:-) So please don't get upset with me, anyone. I am not saying 130 is big at all. I am just saying I have to be pregnant or having one of my bigger moments to weigh that. I guess I can fluctuate from maybe Jada Pinkett Smith small to hmmmm maybe the lady that played Bird on Soul Food -can't rememebr her name. I think people of different shapes and sizes look good. I guess that is what bothers me. It seems as if everyone can't look like us then there is a problem! As a matter of fact, I was like why do I have to be the only Black girl this small? Shoot, brothers don't expect that! :-)and since I have never dated outside of my race I knew it was only a small percentage of Black men that were down with that.

Anon, I find it amazing that people would hate you for presuming that you had an eating disorder. It shows you how screwed up our society in general is about food. Anorexics are admired for their "discipline." The fact that these are mental illnesses don't even cross people's minds.

Anon, I agree with your assessment. It's amazing to me that people perceive it as rude (and it is!) to even comment about a bigger person's weight, even in their absence, but it's somehow acceptable to trash a smaller person's weight to their face. Audrey Tautou, the actress who played Amelie, was asked in an interview what she weighed. She answered and people were pissed that the magazine would reveal her low weight (it was in the high 80s I believe), stating that it encouraged eating disorders or some BS like that. The sensible people who wrote in were more troubled that the magazine would even ask such a question but it's fairly obvious that an American actress wouldn't answer that question.

Anon, I post sometimes at a natural hair website. I once started a thread about the BSF (black slim and fabulous) look. I stared the thread to talk about and celebrate blk women who are naturally thin or who put in effort (healthy) to maintain a thin body.

God help me, a few of the smaller women started to talk about their bodies and being comfortable with their weight and then a few big girls came thru to throw things off. They came across as so insecure. I dared to challenge them on it, as I am medium size but love the tall thin look.

It got so bad that one the healthy vegan sister stepped in to post about the dangers of being obese after reading the big girls post raging on the slim sisters. Next thing you know a full-scale war broke out. Anon you had better believe that there are sisters out here who wished they were small, not the majority but there is some. The ideal in the hood now is Ki-Toy, who is far from obese but not a size o either.

Trust me, many big girls resent you because they wish they could fit your size 1-4 pants.

Daria,I remember that interview. I think it was with Vogue and even Audrey sort of hesitated before revealing her actual weight. If Audrey can be blamed for creating eating disorders, then so can the size twos I see in NYC(pure garbage).

Anon, daria, and chic noir–love y'all, but we're moving from the original question of "how should the government (or other influencing segments of society, i.e. media, advertising, etc.) deal counteracting the harmful message of unhealthy levels of thinness?" to "big girls are hatin' on us skinny sistahs!" My question is (if nothing else, to get us back on-topic), "What is causing the bigger sistahs to hate on skinnier sistahs to the point where they feel the need to verbalize it? What is, in this modern/post-modern culture, giving rise to the pro-ana websites or, to dig deeper, to anorexia and other eating disorders? Who's responsible for this rise? What can be done about it?"

I think you nailed it, daria, when you said, "There is this wonderful land of normality between having a cigarette for dinner and binging." How do we get to that wonderful land? What is our role as women and as consumers? What is the government's role, if any? What is the fashion industry's role?

The Cruel Secretary- The Cruel Secretary- I do not think government has any role in preventing women from developing anorexia. They should have a role in preventing obesity (sp). If we get universal healthcare in this country, so much of taxpayer dollars will be spent on things like Diabetes, cholesterol and BP meds. For most people with a healthy diet and exercise these disorders and diseases can be prevented and/or controlled.

The fashion industry is in the business to sell clothes. In my opinion, clothes look better on a tall thin frame. I do not like to see models who are starving but healthy looking thin models like Liya Kabede, Ne Ne, Christy Turlington, Channel Iman, Laura Stone, Gazelle etc… I would also like to see more ethnic/racial diversity on the runways (like70-80s) but I do not think government should regulate that either.
.

NOW I UNDERSTAND YOUR NAME CUNT FACE I GET IT.
also your more than likly fat

Who are you addressing Chelsa?

post #17

I agree the government has no role to play in curbing annorexia. There's really nothing they can do about it, it's not a law enforcment problem. It's a cultural problem. The culture needs to be changed. As long as you have the prevailing view that skinny = beautiful and people buying into that, girls are going to continue starving themselves, period. And yes, the skinny = beautiful paradigm is most pronounced among whites and upper classes. Like that alone makes you somebody, special. What I find troubling is that it's all about image and not about health. A healthy weight varies from person to person. IMHO you're a healthy if you have no rolls and some muscle tone, and you can be very slender or larger boned and more athletic looking. But society tells us that looking like Callista Flockheart it what matters. If I was a little white girl, I'd have an eating disorder too.